Original Email - penned by John Kazos Jr. (email withheld)
Tue. 19 March 2002 2:45 PM
Subject: MSTings: Ep. 102 (al67) and Ep. 208 (sheep167 & sheep267)
I realize this is long, but please, _please_ don't just delete it...I'd really like to hear a response about it from you. I wrote this message, and now I feel that I need to emphasize again that *none* of it is directed against you...I love what you've done, in your MSTings, and think you're an excellent writer and, though you should show at least a *bit* more consideration for the people whose stories you're MSTing (in the opening disclaimer and the closing statement, I mean), I don't feel your work is inappropriate. But, hopefully, you'll see why I'm speaking to you in particular about this. Again, I thank you for looking at this message, and I ask you to respond to it however you see fit to...this is a sore point for me.
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I'd first like to make a comment about your MSTings, in general (i.e., the riffs themselves and the stories about the SoL/D13 and everything else in between): It's all excellent. In the past 3 days I've read a huge number of your MSTings, and the only times I haven't laughed at a riff or a joke have been the times I just didn't get them (probably from not having the reference, either from the original MST or from the anime being MSTed). This really has been a high point to my weekend, and it's caused me to develop a new obsession about MSTings in general. (I'm glad you've made so many of them!)
But now, I'd like to make a comment about your MSTings, adding in the stories that were MSTed. I do realize that your MSTings are not intended as attacks against people or their stories, and as I read through them, and your comments before and after them, I see no hypocrisy: I concur that you are not attacking anyone or anything. And since I expect you must get an inordinate number of messages about MSTing, I'll skip straight to my point.
I wonder if you recognize and fully understand the enormous power that you, as an extremely popular, talented, and respected author, have over the Internet's community. You are well-known: You can (virtually, of course) walk into most any respectable Internet establishment and be recognized by at least one person, and even immediately engaged in conversation and lavished with praise and fan-born obsession. (Not as popular as Tom Hanks or Jim Carrey, perhaps, but certainly as popular as Mercedes Lackey and Anne McCaffrey...and, the more popular you become, the further you rise in stardom. But that's not my point, right now.)
Imagine what would happen if, during a book signing or similar activity, Anne McCaffrey were to idly comment that she had received a manuscript from an aspiring writer. The writer wasn't looking for patronage or review...he simply decided that he'd like people to read his story, so he sent it out to places, hoping someone would like it and tell him about it. But Anne, talking to her son (standing next to her) while signing books, said, "Hey, you remember that weird manuscript, don't you? I respect an author for putting their work out for everyone to read, but man-oh-man, was that the biggest waste of time *I* ever experienced! I wish I could grab
My rant, today, is about humanity in general, and your work is a distinct genesis point for quite a bit of it, though you certainly were not the cause of it. I have two comments against humanity I will now offer evidence of: 1) Jumping to conclusions is what people do best; and 2) racism, chauvenism (sp?), nationalism, and every other -ism you can name all come from a common, festering core inside us all. (And, note that I do *not* attempt to perpetrate the invalid argument that, because there is so much worse in the world, what we are looking at is in fact not bad. That, too, is not my point.)
It seems like people have never enough to do in their lives, so they bash others for fun. Your MSTings provide good comic relief, good constructive criticism in a way that will forever stick in an author's mind, and even good reading as stories on their own (they're not just bunches of riffs). But they also--unintentionally though they do--act as a screen for the projection of humanity's relentless quest for the denegration of others.
And it's bad enough that people read a story, then start bashing an author (A story is an _expression by an author; an author is not an _expression by a story!); but then, people do even worse, and without even having read the full story! (I have no qualms with the cases where MSTers, including yourself, take out bits of story for the sake of keeping it "tame" for an audience, because you never try to hide the fact that you did. Clever devices, like hiding behind the chairs or putting on protective shades, even make it amusing.) And, once more, that is not my point...if Oscar's and Sheep's sites were functional, people (those who showed even a trace of decency, that is) could simply go to those sites and read the full stories for themselves.
In my search for Oscar's *unedited* writings, I found a horrific set of denegrations that serves to illustrate my points. (Below are clips from them.)
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>> > > >> > > Yes. I figure if nothing else I can derive a fair laugh from some of stupider
>> > > >> > >> > Then read "Artemis's Lover". Believe you me, you'll laugh from here to
>>
>> Oh, God, do NOT, I repeat, DO NOT read "Artemis's Lover!" It is one of
>I've always wondered, could the story be in fact written by a
>> Only the MSTing makes this bearable, and even then only barely.
>
>> It's one of the most
>
Is the entire Internet populated by noone more sophisticated than 3-year--old children? These people need to get a grip, and get a life! So the guy wants to have sex with a cat...I want to have sex with a human. So the guy's got a penis and a vagina...all that means is he's got something I don't. So he has bad grammar and spelling...so maybe he's an idiot, or *maybe* he's simply not a native English speaker (in fact, he *is* a non-native English speaker, fancy that). Maybe he's a twisted, perverted 80-year--old man trying to get his kicks, or maybe he's just another person...your age, my age, or some other age...who's just writing because he wants to express himself. I'd bet he wouldn't get so much ridicule if he wrote like Edgar Allen Poe or Stephen King...and I bet those two notables would get just as much ridicule as Oscar has and is getting if they wrote so poorly. I say this:
Every person on this planet has the right to express themselves, be it by writing a story, by writing about someone else's story, or even MSTing someone else's story, but NO ONE has the right to ridicule a person for what they've done. I don't care if you're (the colloquial 'you') from the U.S.A, Japan, Egypt, or even Zimbabwe...it is not your (the colloquial 'you', still) place in the world (indeed, no such place exists) to decide if someone should be respected or laughed at for creating a work of art.
Bah, I'm rambling, and I apologize for it. Oscar and Sheep may very well be idiots, perverts, losers, geeks, dweebs, freaks, or what have you, but I'm so bloody sick and tired of being barraged by drivel by misguided morons who don't even seem to give a you-know-what about the fact that these people may, indeed, be *NONE* of these things.
(And even though I said I wouldn't argue for this, it needs to be said...to those who made comments like "That has to be the most disgusting thing I have ever read." and threatened to vomit through the thing: Get. A. Blasted. Grip! These people need to be exposed to *real* evil, just for 3 minutes, so they can realize how juvenile and asenine they're being.)
Alright, enough of this. I'm sure you got my point a long time ago...I've not said anything new, just attempted once again to put the dark corners of people's minds into the light. If you have indeed read through this message, I truly do thank you with all my heart, and I look forward to your comments about what I have said. So far we, as a society, have progressed, yet I am left feeling like Socrates, Martin Luther King Jr., women's suffrage, and The Rocky Horror Picture Show never existed. How many more centuries (*shudder* or even millennia) will pass before we finally stop trying to wring each others' necks just because we don't like how those others talk, think, or even look? I feel like I'm swimming in a festering sea of persecution, and the only reason I can still keep my head above water to breathe is because I haven't upset the delicate sensibilities of anyone around me by sneezing too loud, or by performing some other, equally-outrageous act.
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Megane's response - offered 21 March 2002.
>I realize this is long, but please, _please_ don't just delete it...I'd really like
No problem, and I appreciate the positive comments on my MSTings and for making your points known. I can tell you went to a lot of trouble to make up this essay and I needed some time to properly frame a response to be perfectly fair to you.
>Imagine what would happen if, during a book signing or similar activity,
To be honest, a distinction between me and Anne McCaffrey is a straw man [argument]. Anne McCaffrey is painted as saying "This guy sucks" whereas I've never said anything like that about an author in any vein of seriousness. I don't go around the internet and disparage the authors MSTed
>But again, that is not my point...in Sheep's case, at least, your MSTing
It was released after his website went down but again, I meant no offense to Sheep personally.
>It seems like people have never enough to do in their lives, so they bash
Granted, the reactions from some of my readers of my MSTs aren't great, but I feel it is not my fault for writing them. These people do not represent me or my MSTings so therefore I can't control what kind of thngs they say. Many authors have been honored that I've MSTed their works, many have given me their works to MST in the first place, and are very happy with the results. And while there will always be people who delight in putting down others, I'd like to believe the majority of people are in on the joke and know that fantasy and reality are two seperate things.
>In my search for Oscar's *unedited* writings, I found a horrific set of
Ok, I looked over these and I have a few points to make on this issue:
1) As much as you or I may disagree and/or disapprove with certain people's opinions and expressions of their viewpoints, these people still have a right to do so. And IMHO, some of the examples you provided may have been exercising hyperbole on Oscar, exaggerating to generate *humor* instead of to belittle. This just depends on how people parse words and how seriously they take some people's opinions. Such as you, you're taking every one of these opinions very seriously... someone else might find them funny though.
2) By judging these people for the things they've written about Oscar and his works, no matter how well intentioned your objections may be, it still makes you seem no better than the people you decry because of your accusations of all sorts of -isms. Without realizing it, you're judging others by what they write just as much as they're judging Oscar by what he writes.
3) These people might've been offended by the things Oscar has written because obviously everyone does not have the same reaction to a piece of work. Some might've disliked the messages his fanfic was implying ["stalking someone is okay if it's for nonviolent reasons" and "animal cruelty is okay if it's in the name of love", neither of which is a very good message.] Some might be offended by the very notion of bestiality and naturally, there are going to be people that are offended by the way Oscar has bastardized (in their viewpoint) a series they might've liked, Sailor Moon and later, Tiny Toons.
4) As unpleasent as this is to accept, people do have a right to dislike others just because. This also means that those people should not be taken as seriously since they aren't as objective. And just because they might dislike a person, it doesn't AUTOMATICALLY mean it's because of an 'ism'. Besides that, many of those people disliked the way Oscar wrote. That does not mean they thought he should've been eradicated from the face of the earth, that's just one aspect of the person. Even if they met him and enjoyed him, they're not hypocrites for not liking his writing. People are allowed to dislike the part but like the whole, just like they can dislike a whole but
enjoy a part of another person. And everyone should be free to do so.
>Every person on this planet has the right to express themselves, be it by
But if you're going to vehemently defend Oscar's right to free expression, then logically you'll have to defend EVERYONE'S right to express themselves freely. Sometimes that means having to tolerate a[n] opinion that makes you sick but just remember, just because someone says it, doesn't make it so. ;P
Y'know, I think your essay and my response would make for some interesting debate and discussions should they be posted on 'A MST For All Seasons.' It wouldn't be a big deal for Zoogz to put up a page right beside the Oscarfics for this essay and its reply.
It would give others a chance to view both our arguements and agree/disagree as they please. And more importantly, it may get some of the Oscar-haters a moment of pause because I'm still saying that they're the ones who shouldn't be listened to through their adverse comments about Oscar. And I promise you that I won't riff on it. ;P
Sincerely,
Megane 6.7
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Mr. Kazos' Reply - offered 21 March 2002
(The parts that I removed (for bandwidth's sake) are the parts I simply agreed with...and you made me aware of a lot of things I didn't realize I was doing. :-\ In my railings against prejudice, I seem to have prejudiced those whom I railed against, without even knowing it.)
> At 11:50 AM 3/21/02 -0500, you wrote:
I was hoping you'd say that. :-) I sometimes have problems with words, because there's a translation process between my mind and my mouth/hands, and I'm glad you got the essence out of my ramblings.
>To be honest, a distinction between me and Anne McCaffret is a straw
Honestly, I just picked her name randomly of the authors I like most, so that I could compare you to someone also famous. :-\ I never knew she actually *did* what I illustrated her as doing.
[Editor's note: We have not characterized Ms. McCaffrey as insulting aspiring authors. What Megane 6.7 was trying to say was that HE has never said any such disparaging statement over the Internet about any author. By Megane 6.7's denial, maybe Mr. Kazos then deduced that Megane was unlike Ms. McCaffrey, and since Megane has not disparaged any authors then therefore Ms. McCaffrey has. We apologize for any such confusion and state again that we are not characterizing Ms. McCaffrey as having said anything disparaging about any authors.]
>1) As much as you or I may disagree and/or disapprove with certain people's
I never considered this...probably because I tend to lump such people in with the belittlers. I'll need to be more careful in the future.
>2) By judging these people for the things they've written about Oscar and his
This is the best irony of all. :-) One of my professors made this point to me just this morning, when we were discussing the freedom of speech. He was telling the class about how the greatest patriots are those who will stand up and fight even with their own lives to defend the rights of their fellows, even if those fellows think and say the things most dispicable in the world.
>Y'know, I think your essay and my response would make for some interesting
That would be insanely wonderful! :-) I've been trying to get in contact with Oscar by AIM, ICQ, and email, but have had no success. And this point (and points like it) have been festering with me for many years now, as and since I have lost my 'innocence' after attending good middle- and high-schools where I never encountered real prejudice and intolerance. (I think the best one to post would be your original reply, rather than this reply to your original reply, but it is up to you.) It will be *so* refreshing to have the discussion on a popular, public 'wall' for the consideration of others.
And if you have original copies of Oscar's works, I'd like to read them, if you're willing to send them. (Considering that, after this many days, I don't think Oscar exists on the Internet as his previous identity anymore.) One of the most horrible things to me is the destruction of artistic work, for various reasons...*especially* things like fading away due to unpopularity or censorship, and fading away because of "limited edition" nonsense. (A nonsense I have to live with daily, unfortunately,
because my own mother is a painter- and computer-artist.)
And again, my thanks to you, and be you well. :-) Have a good day, Megane 6.7.
__
Editor's Postscript:
This is the sequence of emails as presented on 19-21 March, 2002. My personal involvement in this is limited to consulting with Megane 6.7 as he received the mail and helping to formulate a reply to Mr. Kazos. I'm sorry, Mr. Kazos, if it offends you by having more than your intended recipient read the original email, but Megane brought me into confidence to look at it. I also added the reply email because I thought it pertinent to the conversation.
Megane and I invite anyone with any opinions on this matter to email either (or both) of us, or if they would like to post their opinions via the guestbook. If we receive other on-topical posts regarding this manner, we will be happy to respond to them and post them here if we deem them worthy for online consumption. (subject to emailer's permission)
We thank Mr. John Kazos for presenting his opinion to us and graciously allowing us to post his emails to stimulate online discussion of this issue. And finally, a big apology to both Megane 6.7 and John Kazos, Jr. for my inability to post this earlier. Seeing as how this exchange happened five months ago, I really should've had it up sooner.
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this is the most disturbing fanfic on the face of the planet
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This is why it was MSTed mightily by serveral people (most notably Megane 6.7), Oscar was forever reviled and hated for his fanfic attempts, his work is considered an ideal tool to induce vomiting, and someone wrote a fic that involved the author/avatar's own death by sacrificing himself to save humanity from a really big comet. Oh, and the Fanboys! did a moviefic in which they foiled Dr Forrester's attempts to clone Oscar (thereby floodng the world with bestial hermaphrodite porn, allowing him to take over) by breaking into the Megane 6.7 riffing and causing them to unleash a pan-dinemsional eraserfic, thereby destroying all traces of Oscar and his work. : -P
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@_@ Oh...MY...GOD. I knew this lemon was sick. But I didn't know it was THIS sick...*shudders* And so badly written too... I might have to MST it.
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oh God...who...WHY?? this just HAD to be the first post I ever read on this group, it just HAD to be...
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There, there. With therapy and time, you'll recover. Although the phrase "Oscar putted on his tennis" will probably be FOREVER burned into your mind...
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But I wouldn't recommend it. How Megane ever had the stomach to even MST it in the first place, I don't know.
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That has to be the most disgusting thing I have ever read. I actually brought a bucket to sit by my chair halfway through it. Adam (I haven't been that nauseous without having a few drinks first in a long time)
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Cat person eh? so you wash yourself in your own spit do ya? <1 point ref>
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> It is, in a word, stupid. The person who wrote it is either one of the most
> perverted people ever, or is trying to violently destroy the whole Sailor Moon
> following. It appears to be written by a 10 year old boy (Sad, isn't it?) and
> is about a hermaphrodite 11 year old who forms a sexual relationship with a
> talking cat. It is chock full of bad dialogue, stupid plot points, about 1%
> reason, and as I remember, a few quotes from "NBA Jam". I can't even remember
> how it ends. Oh, yeah, the kids name is Oscar, and he loses hi virginity in
> this story. It is a true example of how sick someone can be. Uck.
>
> Jim "Boomshakalaka!" Lauwers
> You forgot to mention how it makes hair curl at fifty feet and looms over you like a
>dark spectre of death.
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My pervert has a first name, it's O - S - C - A - R...
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>> > > > I'm in a perverted frame of mind today!!!
>> > > > >> > > > 1.Do you read lemons?
>> > > ones...
>> > Midgar at how unterlly horrible it is.
>> the most disgusting things I have ever read, combining all the horror of
>> badly written lemons, a poor writer, self-insertion fics, bestiality,
>> and poor knowledge of the subject all into one.
>respected fanfic author who was masquerading as a complete and
>utter crackpot? I'll just look through it again.
>
>
>
>....
>
>I think I'm going blind.
>> You can't even laugh at the complete and utter wretchedness of it
>> all;
>You read through the WHOLE thing? Including *THAT* scene which
>would make *THAT* picture look positively tame?
>
>
>> horrible, bleachhiest, disgusting, idiotic, and bad things ever
>> written. And the sequel's not very good, either.
>....
>
>oh god no, there's a SEQUEL to than piece of crap???
>
>....
>
>Excuse me, I think my eyes are starting to bleed again....
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>to hear a response about it from you. I wrote this message, and now I feel
>that I need to emphasize again that *none* of it is directed against you...I
>love what you've done, in your MSTings, and think you're an excellent writer
>and, though you should show at least a *bit* more consideration for the
>people whose stories you're MSTing (in the opening disclaimer and the
>closing statement, I mean), I don't feel your work is inappropriate. But,
>hopefully, you'll see why I'm speaking to you in particular about this. Again,
>I thank you for looking at this message, and I ask you to respond to it
>however you see fit to...this is a sore point for me.
>Anne McCaffrey were to idly comment that she had received a manuscript
>from an aspiring writer. The writer wasn't looking for patronage or
>review...he simply decided that he'd like people to read his story, so he
>sent it out to places, hoping someone would like it and tell him about it. But
>Anne, talking to her son (standing next to her) while signing books, said,
>"Hey, you remember that weird manuscript, don't you? I respect an author
>for putting their work out for everyone to read, but man-oh-man, was that
>the biggest waste of time *I* ever experienced! I wish I could grab <insert
>author's name here> and get that part of my life back." The word would
>pass like wildfire through those present, both because Anne McCaffrey is
>so popular and respected, and because her fans would take her word as
>canon. It probably would end there, though, for lack of fuel, because the
>author's story wouldn't have such widespread distribution that his name
>would be recognized. But *this* is the Internet...here, anything even mildly
>interesting is usually seen by at least 200,000 pairs of eyes less than 72
>hours after it's put onto display, so you can well imagine would would
>happen in this case.
>occurred after Sheep had already shut down his site(unless you released
>a revised MSTing after it occurred).
>others for fun. Your MSTings provide good comic relief, good constructive
>criticism in a way that will forever stick in an author's mind, and even good
>reading as stories on their own (they're not just bunches of riffs). But they
>also--unintentionally though they do--act as a screen for the projection of
>humanity's relentless quest for the denegration of others.
>denegrations that serves to illustrate my points. (Below are clips from
>them.)
>writing a story, by writing about someone else's story, or even MSTing
>someone else's story, but NO ONE has the right to ridicule a person for
>what they've done. I don't care if you're (the colloquial 'you') from the U.S.A,
>Japan, Egypt, or even Zimbabwe...it is not your (the colloquial 'you', still)
>place in the world (indeed, no such place exists) to decide if someone
>should be respected or laughed at for creating a work of art.
>I can tell you went to a lot of trouble to make up this essay and I needed
>some time to properly frame a response to be perfectly fair to you.
>man [argument]. Anne McCaffrey is painted as saying "This guy sucks"
>whereas I've never said anything like that about an author in any vein of
>seriousness. I don't go around the internet and disparage the authors MSTed
.
>opinions and expressions of their viewpoints, these people still have a
>right to do so. And IMHO, some of the examples you provided may have been
>exercising hyperbole on Oscar, exaggerating to generate *humor* instead of to
>belittle. This just depends on how people parse words and how seriously they
>take some people's opinions. Such as you, you're taking every one of these
>opinions very seriously... someone else might find them funny though.
>works, no matter how well intentioned your objections may be, it still makes you
>seem no better than the people you decry because of your accusations of all
>sorts of -isms. Without realizing it, you're judging others by what they write
>just as much as they're judging Oscar by what he writes.
>
>But if you're going to vehemently defend Oscar's right to free expression, then
>logically you'll have to defend EVERYONE'S right to express themselves freely.
>Sometimes that means having to tolerate a opinion that makes you sick but just
>remember, just because someone says it, doesn't make it so. ;P
>debate and discussions should they be posted on 'A MST For All Seasons.' It
>wouldn't be a big deal for Zoogz to put up a page right beside the Oscarfics for
>this essay and its reply.
>
>It would give others a chance to view both our arguements and agree/disagree as
>they please. And more importantly, it may get some of the Oscar-haters a moment
>of pause because I'm still saying that they're the ones who shouldn't be listened to
>through their adverse comments about Oscar. And I promise you that I won't riff
>on it. ;P
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